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Drop Out

pabloiv's picture

pabloiv — Thu, 04/22/2010 - 21:55

Before I start, I want to tell a bit of my story because it brings some context into what I want to actually write about.

I spent 5 years, in 3 colleges, studying (in order) computer engineering, architecture, and PoliSci. Although I’m a better balanced renaissance man for it, my parents spent somewhere close to $20,000 for this unnecessary formation.

5 years ago my brother, some (now long lost) partners, and I, started our first company. We were idiots in the beginning and made tons of all sorts of mistakes. I remember that when we got our first client I stayed there at their office, after the closing meeting, waiting for my check.  Still, as the years came and went we: changed offices, changed partners, gained knowledge, got battle scars, and grew; considerably. Although we’re still a small company of just 5 we’ve been able to establish ourselves as experts in the field of Web Development, and have found clients who have decided to pay us handsomely for our expertise and follow through. At 28 I’m where ambitious people expect to be in their mid-30s. Not a single one of my chosen fields of study helps in any direct way my current profession.

The best thing I could have done was quitting school and getting to work.

My goal with this piece is to dissuade potential or current college students from pursuing a structured higher education. I’ll try to go through all the arguments I’ve heard in favor of going to college, but I’m sure I’ll miss some. I expect heated discussion in the comments but let’s try and keep it civil, don’t be a troll.

(NOTE: This is not for people pursuing fields that require a degree to acquire a license, just make sure that you know what you’re getting into before wasting other people’s money.)

Degree=More money

Although there is proven causation between going to college and higher average salaries there are various factors that the College Board doesn’t consider when calculating the financial benefits of a higher education. I’m not going to explain it myself but this article does a fine job of crunching the numbers.  The point is moot either way as people with specific skills, vision, and drive will make money independent of their formal education.

College helps the job hunt

This is less true on a daily basis. Companies used to take a bachelor’s degree as direct evidence of a person’s talent and potential. This talent and potential, implied in the degree, might still hold true, but companies don’t tend to look for unproven potential anymore. Corporations now look for individuals with proven work experience, and a results driven track record. This way they have a better picture of who they’re hiring before having to commit to all the costs associated with a new employee. I’ll add a note that our only directly hired employee is a very well paid 19 year old programmer who taught himself. He proved himself while collaborating with us during an industry event. We hired him 3 months later, straight out of high school. We tried to convince him to drop out of college but his mom’s adamant about him getting a degree.

College rounds you out.

I’ll agree to that, somewhat. I have friends who would have probably never read the classics had it not been for basic humanities courses; but all this material is readily and freely available online for those with the interest. I agree that these books are great and a must read, I don’t agree that they should be forced on everyone.
If someone doesn’t want to ever read The Republic because it is of an uninteresting subject to them, or because the content is too dense, or because the allusions are not relatable, they shouldn’t. These sorts of people will rarely get much out of these magnificent pieces beyond the answers to a reading comprehension test. In much the same way those so inclined will find these books independently of college.

College is where teens become adults

I’ve heard this argument more than once. College is the oven where teens go to bake for a while and come out as adults, the perfect place to sow wild oats and experiment with alternative lifestyles, the unreal world with milder repercussions where mistakes are forgotten as errors of youth.

Bullshit.

I have friends who are doctors, lawyers, engineers, diplomats, teachers, and politicians, and college or no college, not one of them is an adult; drunks, stoners, philanderers, gamblers, rascals and hooligans, the whole lot of them. They’re all making it up as they go along becoming adults on the way, the same as everyone else. Even if they had come out as respectable adults, an average debt of $19,999 seems a bit steep for having a place to party and find oneself.

College is where you find like-minded people to discuss ideas.

The web solved this one. Anything you could possibly want to discuss; from contemporary literature to underwater basket weaving, there’s at least 100 weirdos online, just full of questions and ideas, who would just love to discuss your insane hypotheses. With Twitter and Google they’re even easier to find.

Even worse college is expensive as all hell. Besides rent, food and transportation, college loan payments can easily become a professional family’s largest burden. Especially considering the current job market and degree saturation, there are a lot more qualified applicants than available positions. This requires people to seek further education into grad, doctoral and post-doc studies, delaying entry into the workforce well into the mid to late 20s and robbing these individuals from valuable and relevant work experience. Furthermore a case can be made that the quality of the education itself is not as relevant as most people think, which implies that college graduates get paid more just because traditionally companies expect to pay more for college grads, not because they are either more qualified or better prepared than those without degrees.

There are still reasons why colleges should exist such as being funding magnets for research, or training centers for the few professions that justifiably require training instead of just instruction, but in general, if you’re in there for the humanities, social sciences, or communications, you’re probably better off with an internet connection and an internship. So drop out and get to work.

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Number 3's picture

In the words of Will Hunting:

Number 3 — Tue, 06/01/2010 - 19:23

In the words of Will Hunting: "See, the sad thing about a guy like you is, in 50 years you're gonna start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you're going to come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life: one, don't do that, and two, you dropped 150 grand on a f***in' education you could have got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library!"

The only thing about this though is that Will Hunting was a super genius.  So yes he could get the same education, but what about someone with a so-so IQ in the superior but not genius range, could they really get the same education?

  • reply
pabloiv's picture

Not IQ, drive.

pabloiv — Wed, 06/02/2010 - 01:16

Drive and some IQ is what really moves the achievers.
I'd argue that without drive, even with all the education on the planet, that person would still fail, and someone with drive will find the info whereever it is.

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Jean's picture

College for All? not so fast

Jean — Thu, 05/13/2010 - 17:36

This came out today in the Huff Post:

quote, "The notion that a four-year degree is essential for real success is being challenged by a growing number of economists, policy analysts and academics. They say more Americans should consider other options such as technical training or two-year schools, which have been embraced in Europe for decades."

Read the whole thing here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/13/college-for-all-experts-s_n_575...

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Al Carbon's picture

I've read articles along this

Al Carbon — Thu, 05/13/2010 - 18:13

I've read articles along this line of reasoning, and while I totally agree that on a person-by-person basis a 4 year college degree may not automatically be the most economically advantageous option, on another level if taken advantage of there is no replacement for the education you will receive at a good 4 year college.

Besides fluffy, but valid, arguments for this kind of education on a quality of life/being a complete person angle, it's incredibly important that in a democracy everyone be well educated enough to read and write and analyze arguments. So while I pretty much agree with Pablo on a theoretical basis, when you start saying "who cares how much colleges cost, a 4 year degree is optional anyway," I have to totally disagree. The UPR is invaluable as an affordable way of providing puerto rican citizens with a decent education. I mean really, can you imagine what this place would be like if people went immediately from Catholic school to running the country???? yikes.

I wouldn't trade anything for the education I received in college, and I don't think I could have done it without the structure and community that college offered. That's not to say it's impossible, but it's out of reach for most people.

Also, not everyone has the entrepreneurial mindset or organization and discipline to be their own boss. I think schools should do a better job at teaching this sort of thing, but Pablo's path isn't something just anyone could do.

With that said, 2 year or technical schools are a great choice for dumbasses who are spending their 4 years in school partying at the frat house and paying people to write their papers for them. And there is much better job security in being a plumber these days than any "idea" job that can easily be farmed out to a telecommunicating foreigner for half the price.

 

 

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pabloiv's picture

education or instruction

pabloiv — Mon, 05/31/2010 - 16:58

Thing is Alex with the web as it stands, most of the information available in a degree is available online, free. Kind of the Good Will Hunter argument, but instead of libraries it's the World Wide Web.

If you dedicate yourself and make a point of it the only real difference is the structure that a class/semester system brings. That and the degree. And if degrees are losing value so are colleges.

I don't disagree with your point that education and knowledge should be free and readily available. My argument is that it already is. In a much better and up to date package.

P.S. More people need to start developing the entrepreneurial spirit, the future depends on it.

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Captain Clorox's picture

BRAVO!!!

Captain Clorox — Wed, 04/28/2010 - 03:35

 I still have to pay back 16 grand to Citibank for my five year bullshit college degree in FINE ARTS. FINE ARTS! There's an EXPENSIVE degree, in studying about OPINIONS!!!!!

 Nuff said.

  Loved your article and WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with it! What a joy it is to spend five and a half years at a college (the more expensive the better, right?), and graduate from it JUST IN TIME for the biggest economic recession since the Great Depression! So NO JOBS available, anywhere in your field! But hey, at least you got that bitchin souvenier college debt that you STILL have to pay back like there never was any "recession". You know, a little something to remember the moments of when you got drilled up the anus by the government, and the lies of your insisting boujois family members! What comfort to know that someone who skipped on college six years ago has a better chance at a steady career, paycheck, and his/her own place by now, while you and your expensive "degree" in, umm, observing paint, can fully prepare you for living in your parents house until you’re 50, strumming a guitar for your kickass "band" that's never gonna happen while spending the late hours of your lonely nights masturbating to pictures of lots of money, and practicing for a career in tying that perfect noose around your neck to take you away from all the tears the demons have once again ravaged upon you. But hey, at least you got that magical paper that says you’re supposed to be better than everyone else, which makes for a great sponge that can absorb the blood from your fists after you’re done punching away at the bitter disappointment you see in the bathroom mirror night after drunken dim-lighted night! In 2010, college is as necessary to a young naïve youth as calories are to a fat chick! But hey what do I know? I’m only talking from personal experience. Don’t take my word for it, seriously. Take the word of ever college sales pitch desperate for any cash, ever. Take the word of Citibank, and Goldman Sachs, and AIG, and Bank of America, and Merrill Lynch, and all those other honest, good-gosh-darn, generous, loyal, compassionate, exemplary, good to the last bone, dependable, slice of Americana, golden-boy, church going darlings who want you to go to college, so you can take out a loan from them, so they can later “not” screw you over, for ever and ever and ever, and then squeeze more money out of the already broken, moth-infested wallet playing blues harmonica to pass the time jailed inside ever Americans’ decrepid, moss laden pockets. Shucks, way to go Super Scholar! See you in ten years with the seven brain-dead kids you and your now broken impromptu marriage decided to spit out half-assely just to get discounts on your sacred college bills! I'm sure you'll all be atheistically "peachy" then. I mean hey, I hear there's always lots more extra cash to be made from sucking dick after the stripping shift ends!
But that's just my two cents, which I will now be taking back, since, thanks to college, I will be needing them to spend on today's dinner: a bar of Snickers and sheet of paper towel moist with leftover Fanta. Bon Apetit indeed- Thanks Kollaj!

Again, great article- everybody should be reading it! Keep writing more of these and you’ll make a fan of me in no time! Although you’ve already scored enough brownie points by posting up a profile pic that makes you look exactly like Bluto from Popeye! Agh-ack-ack-ack-ack (Toot-Toot!)!

Arigato,

 -Captain C.

  • reply
pabloiv's picture

Totally Bluto

pabloiv — Wed, 04/28/2010 - 07:55

That was an impromptu pic too.

Thanks for the props man.

  • reply

let's agree

Ron Burgundy (not verified) — Tue, 04/27/2010 - 11:32

to disagree, shall we?

  • reply
pabloiv's picture

Discussion

pabloiv — Tue, 06/08/2010 - 23:40

I'd rather hear your argument.

  • reply
rantes's picture

It depends on what you want...

rantes — Mon, 04/26/2010 - 20:18

I agree that if making money is your ultimate goal, then by all means, drop out. You can get most of the education you need to succeed, especially in business, on the WWW and your local library.

However, college is about "the experience". Granted, it can be a very expensive experience, but nonetheless it can have great repercussions.

It is also about networking... some of the greatest business network connections have occurred in college campuses across the world.

The problem is I don't think 18 year old kids are mature enough to really take advantage of all the stuff universities have to offer! I learned way more taking college courses online 10 years after finishing my bachelor's degree than during my actual years in college. Plus it didn't cost me $80K (which I still haven't finished paying). But I would give anything to go back and take classes at my old Alma Mater... I look at the courses they offer and I could spend a life there!

It's kind of similar to the old saying: "I wish I knew then what I know now". The best of it is, I would probably skip every party or social gathering, I would be the ultimate NERD!

So, in summary, I think college can ONLY make you better, it is just a matter of WHEN you go to college. I definitely don't think it is a worthless experience, it is just that most college students don't have the maturity necessary to take advantage of it.

PS: This doesn't apply to anyone attempting to obtain a professional degree.

  • reply
pabloiv's picture

I agree but the price is absurd

pabloiv — Tue, 04/27/2010 - 14:47

An $80,000 debt sounds a bit steep.

  • reply

Totalmente de acuerdo. Solo

Anonymous (not verified) — Mon, 04/26/2010 - 23:41

Totalmente de acuerdo.
Solo la experiencia de haber estudiado en una universidad es "priceless".
Ironicamente, te das cuenta de lo que te perdiste o lo que pudiste haber aprovechado mejor. luego de haber pasado por ella.

  • reply

Um,

Anonymous (not verified) — Mon, 04/26/2010 - 15:41

Wow...completely disagree...Can't believe there isn't more debate about this. I'm amazed.

  • reply
pabloiv's picture

Debate got Hijacked

pabloiv — Mon, 04/26/2010 - 15:54

Looks like the debate got hijacked by some OSX user interface issue.

But feel free to add your view, I've been looking for this debate.

  • reply
Manolo Matos's picture

You might have a point but...

Manolo Matos — Mon, 04/26/2010 - 15:01

Your points are true, but there are companies that WILL NOT HIRE YOU unless you have a bachelor's drgree no matter how many years of experience in the field you have. The company I work for, Westlake Chemicals, will not hire anybody without a bachelor's degree. In my case I am grateful I have a Master's because it allowed me to get a job where I work 14 days a month and get paid a shitload of money. You might make a lot of money as a refrigeration technician or a diesel mechanic, but you can't beat doing very little and getting paid really well. I actually work about 15% of the time I spent at work, the rest of the time I am commenting on blogs and writing my own blog entries.

http://loquemedicenlasvoces.blogspot.com/

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Captain Clorox's picture

...And, obviously, hugging

Captain Clorox — Wed, 04/28/2010 - 02:09

...And, obviously, hugging very large, powerful dogs. :)

  • reply
Manolo Matos's picture

The babies

Manolo Matos — Wed, 04/28/2010 - 07:00

Atlas, the black and white Great Dane is 150 pounds adn 36" to the shoulder. A giant with a gentle heart. The golden is 89 pounds and the "little brother".

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pabloiv's picture

With Gabriel there

pabloiv — Mon, 04/26/2010 - 17:40

That's sort of the place where the whole thing's going. Do your own thing. It might be harder, it might suck at the beginning, but the payoff rocks.

  • reply
Gabriel Mulero's picture

jobs?

Gabriel Mulero — Mon, 04/26/2010 - 17:21

That's great for those whose only aspirations are to "get a job" but haven't you thought about "starting a business"? You work in a business. The owner started it somehow and I bet you a month's pay that he works less than your 15% and earns more a year than what you'l earn in a lifetime.

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Manolo Matos's picture

Added benefits

Manolo Matos — Tue, 04/27/2010 - 01:05

The "owner" of the company (in quotation because it's really owned by the shareholders) also has 85% more headaches than I do. I can go home after work and play with my son not caring if the plant is making good product or if it blew up. It's not all about the money.

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Gabriel Mulero's picture

nonargument

Gabriel Mulero — Tue, 04/27/2010 - 08:16

What about the headache you'd have if you lost your job buddy. I guess you won't have one cuz you'll be playing with your son.  You could be having a fun time, but that's not enough basis for your argument. In all reality, rich business owners have headaches just as poor workers do. The difference is just the reason for the headache.

If you don't believe this, ask all of the people who've lost their livelyhoods in the past two years due to the recession.

You're both having the same headache, but at least he's getting paid better.

  • reply
pabloiv's picture

Leave him be

pabloiv — Tue, 04/27/2010 - 14:18

He's evidently living an idyllic life. No way any argument could possibly compete with how perfect everything is going for him.

  • reply
Manolo Matos's picture

If I loose my job while I am

Manolo Matos — Tue, 04/27/2010 - 15:57

If I loose my job while I am playing with my son then i'll find another. After all, I have a master's and experience. Besides, while I am playing with my son, the company is paying someone else to worry about it. I only give a shit about your company when you are paying me to give a shit. I am having an idyllic life, you're right abut that. I guess it's true what they say you can't argue with uneducated people.

  • reply
Al Carbon's picture

I don't see why you guys are

Al Carbon — Tue, 05/18/2010 - 15:04

I don't see why you guys are being so snarky, I think you've hit on the crux of the issue. On the one hand, you can start your own business. The rewards for that are really great, but you also have extra work and you have to run a business instead of just having a job. That means dealing with people, dealing with numbers, dealing with all kinds of random catastrophes at any hour of the day. There is less risk that you will lose your job, but there is more risk that you will be totally screwed if something happens to that particular company (yours).

That setup appeals to some people, who can multitask and devote a lot of time and energy and take care of lots of different types of duties.

Some people just want to have a good job and don't want the hassle of running a company, although the monetary rewards can be greater. (And some people wouldn't be good at running a company, others wouldn't be good at being an employee b/c it would drive them nuts not to be able to run the show).

You guys should stop griping because without people like pablo, manolo wouldn't be able to work at a company someone else was running. And without people like manolo, pablo wouldn't have any employees.

sheesh.

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Gabriel Mulero's picture

fracking!

Gabriel Mulero — Fri, 04/23/2010 - 09:21

You know, I was  writing something really cool but I hit Command + Left Arrow like I normally do to go to the beginning of the line and it backed all the way to the last screen erasing my masterpiece.

This is the hundreths time this happens and I'm seriously enraged by it.

It's a simple command that I use everywhere to go to the start of a line. It's just like the Home key on a Windows keyboard... Why does this happen? La Acera coders, please change this.

  • reply
Al Carbon's picture

Not sure what kind of

Al Carbon — Fri, 04/23/2010 - 13:09

Not sure what kind of computer you are running, but if I am on any web page on any browser and click command + left arrow it takes me back a page. AFAIK, it's a browser shortcut and nothing we could code away. 

But try Jean's suggestion. It also might help if you first click on "switch to plain text editor" underneath the text box before you write your comment (that is, if I'm wrong and it actually is something about the text box).

  • reply
Gabriel Mulero's picture

All right

Gabriel Mulero — Fri, 04/23/2010 - 14:11

All right. I understand that it's a browser command, but somehow, in wordpress, when I accidentally hit Command + Z, a warning window pops up asking me if I really want to procede since I would lose all information. So when I see this warning, I retract.

  • reply
Al Carbon's picture

hmmm.... I'll look into it. 

Al Carbon — Fri, 04/23/2010 - 14:18

hmmm.... I'll look into it. 

  • reply
Gabriel Mulero's picture

Command + Left Arrow

Gabriel Mulero — Sat, 04/24/2010 - 17:06

Sorry, not Command + Z. I meant to say Command + Left Arrow. That's what brings up the alert window in Wordpress.

  • reply
Jean's picture

When that happens, can't you

Jean — Fri, 04/23/2010 - 10:31

When that happens, can't you hit command + Z and undo it?

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Jean's picture

A new path?

Jean — Fri, 04/23/2010 - 07:44

Had we spoken about this over beers, in a rather quick manner, I would have dismissed your argument from the get go.

With a cup of coffee and with the benefit of your article, I have to say you have a point good sir. With all the means now available to people, the cart-blanche approach to college is becoming less relevant.

Of course, doctors and lawyers have no other choice, but more "ad hoc" professions should consider alternatives. 

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Al Carbon's picture

I mostly agree with

Al Carbon — Fri, 04/23/2010 - 02:10

I mostly agree with you.

But you have to step off The Republic.

That is all.

  • reply
pabloiv's picture

Not stepping on the Republic

pabloiv — Fri, 04/23/2010 - 07:04

I love the thing i reread more often than I care to admit, but the book isn't for everyone.

  • reply
Al Carbon's picture

We just (re) read it in our

Al Carbon — Fri, 04/23/2010 - 13:05

We just (re) read it in our book group! You shoulda joined us.

  • reply

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